http://nymag.com/news/frank-rich/declining-america-2012-7/?mid=nymag_press
my take is that it was never as good as they would like us to believe.
Read Upton Sinclair's book "The Jungle". In the more recent past - how about the Martin Luther King led civil right marches of the mid-60's. Smack dab in the middle of the 8 year run of the Andy Griffith show American citizens were being sprayed with fire hoses and had police dogs let loose on them.
But enough about what I have to say - Frank Rich's article is much better than mine. His focus is on the perception and he doesn't even have to point out the obvious like I feel compelled to.
Good post but Rich's article was spectacular. He hit one out of the park. I don't know why we want to pretend that it was always better in "the good old days." And, of course, the corollary is that today's young people are lazy, disrespectful, and have no morals. We do have very difficult challenges ahead, and I suspect for a least one of them - climate change - we will have a much less than optimal solution. But, that does not mean that the "greatest generation", or any other previous generation, would have had any better solution. Remember, the greatest generation gave us Viet Nam and drug prohibition, fought against civil rights, and tried very hard to keep women in their place.
ReplyDeleteMy post was merely the vessel - I thought Rich's article was spectacular as well. As you pointed out climate change, which is our biggest problem (based on solution and probable outcome) and the other being what Rich alluded to is the redistribution of wealth. As Yogi Berra once said "It's déjà vu all over again" - the concentration of wealth in the late 1800s-early 1900s that required Congress to pass a number of laws like the estate tax and Sherman Antitrust Act that lead to the growth of the "good old days".
ReplyDeleteI don't get it. How can you possibly genralize an entire generation? They fought against women's rights? then how did we get them? did magical faries from the land of sugar just appear? Didn't Bella Abzug born in 1920 champion women's rights? didn't the same folks that brought us Vietnam also bring us the civil rights act of 1964? Aren't you doing the same thing in opposite direction-- good old days (over generalization) to they sucked (over generalization)? I think it's awesome to pay tribute to the generation before and I do think our WW II era citizens must be recognized for their selfless contribution to society. It's natural for every generation to yearn for the simplicity of the past. There were many, many things to like about those days and I think it's rather harmless to be nostalgic. Yes that generation had its flaws but if you must generalize I'd say the scale was pretty heavy in thier favor. I found Rich's article just a tad insulting to say that we've been hysterical about decline since Obama's election. Just a little subtle accusation of racism? I might add however that every great civilization has eventually declined. I think one could argue it's a "natural" cycle so I don't think it's hysteria to worry about it. There are a million theories on why the Roman empire declined but it's clear there was a loss of political, economic and military strength and breakdown of social institutions. Gee that sounds kind of familar, but pay no attention to me, I'm a flag waver that happens to think that we will never see another generation like that WW II generation again. I hope my kids think my generation contributed to the success of society, but given that I'm going to leave them a generation of debt,I'm not counting on it.
ReplyDeleteAnon, I wasn't trying to generalize an entire generation, I was trying to point out that "the greatest generation", like all generations, had/has flaws. I think it is important to recognize and acknowledge things like that so that we can understand mistakes made by prior generations and try to avoid repeating them. With respect to US decline you might be interested in American Theocracy by Kevin Phillips. Phillips was a senior political strategist for Nixon and helped define the strategy that split the south and defense industry states from the Dems and added them to the Reps. He was the one who came up with the term Sunbelt. Anyway, in this book he discusses in detail the similarities between the decline and fall of the Spanish, Dutch, and English empires with what policies that we are pursuing today, primarily the ascendance of the financial industry over other sectors, the growing impact of religion on our leadership, and reckless involvement in overseas military actions. Anyway, it is an interesting take on where we are.
DeleteWRT flag waving, I'm afraid I'm not much of one. I was drafted right after graduating from college and spent four years as an enlisted man in the Air Force. Out of my HS graduating class of 180, 3 of my classmates were killed in Viet Nam before I got out of college and several others served and came back so F'd up their lives never were normal. While in the service I was required to read the official history (an actual Army manual) of Viet Nam - at the end of that I was asking what are we doing there. I spent 32 years working for major defense contractors, I've been in many meetings with senior officers and seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. I've come to totally agree with Smedley Butler, only man to win two Medals of Honor and the Marine Corp Brevet Medal who said "I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
Dear Medina - As I would say to any Veteran--Thank you for your service to your country. Vietnam is a very painful chapter in this country's history and I wouldn't even begin to say I know what you went through. I have not read the book you mentioned but I am familar with the author and I thought he did a hatchet job on the Bush family in a book he wrote about them. So I would begin with a bit of a chip on my shoulder over the author. I am not sure if anyone can predict where things will go but I do think have the historical perspective is always a good guide. I think you have to mix authors to get the whole picture - read Niall Ferguson and Paul Krugman. I do believe that underneath it all if we are not lead by men and women of moral integrity we are simply doomed. I will continue to wave my flag because I have great hope that some people go into public service for the right reasons. I do worry that a populace that is more concerned with what Kim Kardashian is wearing than with why Solyndra got 535 million tax payer dollars is headed for disaster. I guess what most surprises me about your post is that you build a pretty convincing case that the government doesn't exactly have a great history of handling things well. That is a point we strongly agree on. I fear a larger Federal government. I see no good coming from them controlling more of my life and sucking more money into their grip. ~L.
ReplyDeleteDear Anon, I appreciate your thanks, but I was only doing what I was compelled to do. I joined the AF so that I wouldn't have to (as several guys I grew up did with lifelong consequences) kill women and children to save my own dumb ass. I read Krugman's blog pretty regularly but am not familiar with Ferguson, I will look him up.
DeleteI think possibly where you and I see things differently is what drives the government. In general, I see the government as a bunch of folks, some good some bad, doing a job that is often quite difficult. What Butler's statement points out, and what I've observed personally, is that government actions are often driven by private interests out to enhance their own goals. As I view US history, it has been a slow and often unsteady fight to reign in powerful interests through government control. Look at Butler's statement, how many of those same organizations were involved in the recent economic crisis. After the banking collapse in 32 we implemented Glass-Steagall to try to prevent that from happening again. Well, Sandy Weill, Alan Greenspan, and Phil Gramm pushed and got it repealed and we ended up with almost a repeat of 32. They could take our deposits and gamble with them in weird financial instruments and when they crashed the FDIC put up the money. That is probably the main thing that kept us from going under this time. So was that the government that did that? Or was it special interests corrupting the government? And where would we be if Glass-Steagall had never been enacted? Government is not perfect, even remotely, but go ahead and try to stand up to the Carnegies, the Mellons, and the Rockefellers without it.
As far as the government sucking up your money I assume you were up and screaming bloody murder when Bush started two unfunded wars. I would guess that, by the time all the veteran's issues are settled and the last troops are withdrawn, Iraq will have cost in the neighborhood of $1.5 trillion. I remember when Rumsfeld contended that Iraq oil would fund the whole thing and a budget analyst was fired for saying it would cost $300 billion. I was against Iraq and wanted only to get Bin Laden, but I felt we should have been taxed at that point to pay for both actions - it was clear what was going to happen (especially in Afghanistan) and I felt that we should all sacrifice if that is what had been decided.
Back to the point - the "good old days" I think refers to a time when a family with 6 children could live well with one working parent but today a family with 2 children needs two working parents. When politics wasn't so personal and our leaders debated each other without constant laughing and interruption - and as a result, Washington got things done. Where kids had respect for their elders and you just never heard of young teenagers harassing old ladies or men in wheelchair chairs. And where TV content had some moral compass...
ReplyDeleteThe "good ole days" sure weren't perfect, but we can all take a lesson from our parents and grandparents.
Medina64, regardless of your reasons - you will always be a hero in my eye for your service in the war (conflict). We both know, you had other choices not to go and very few people would have thought less of you.